The September issue of Worship Leader Magazine has dropped and many have noticed something disturbing. There is an article written by Julie Reid, who is the executive editor of the magazine, that talks about the youth leaving the church.
The disturbing issue here is not the topic, but the photo chosen to illustrate her topic. Apparently, they decided it was a good idea to insert a photo of Julie’s daughter wearing an “Obama For President” shirt.
As you can imagine, this drew quite a bit of attention and many not-so-nice responses. Shortly after, Julie made a post on the Worship Leader Magazine blog entitled “Taking Heat”, and implied that it was not really her fault that it was in there. What she actually said was something to the effect that a member of her staff decided that this was a good idea and also decided to make note that the photo was of her daughter. She then said that it was just something she “missed in a big, bad way”.
She then asked a question to the effect of how do we as leaders become more conscious of the things we say and do that we normally don’t think about but cause so much emotion to be brought out of people?
My question is, as the executive editor, how can you not be conscious of the fact that you let a photo of your daughter in an Obama shirt get past you? Either you are negligent and shouldn’t be the executive editor, or you openly support your daughter’s choice to promote Obama and shouldn’t be the leader of a magazine targeted at worship leaders.
Let’s face it, Obama claims to be a man of faith, but also says abortion is ok and that homosexuality is no more immoral than heterosexuality? That does not sound like a man with Christian values to me. Given that people tend to vote their values, and that your inclusion of that photo also tends to suggest you support her decision publicly, what does that say about your values?
People in congregations look to their leaders and worship leaders in the church look to you as an example. Don’t you think that this presents a poor example to leaders who are going to be leading others?
Now, whether it’s negligence or ignorance, the photo still got included. Either way, how does the executive editor of a publication that targets worship leaders get away with allowing this photo whether on accident or on purpose? You should NEVER make a public endorsement of ANY candidate in a publication targeted at worship leaders, regardless of their values. Politics brings out the worst in a lot of people.
I’d like to refer you to her post at this point, however, there is a problem with that. I read some of the comments to her post and they all made the point that given her position she shouldn’t miss something like that. I myself had been going to post, but I suppose she couldn’t handle the truth so she deleted the entire post.
I guess Julie isn’t very good at “Taking Heat”.
Thoughts?
Filed under: Christianity, Christians, Fake Christians, God, Politics, Real Christianity, Real Church, Worship, Worship Leader, Worship Leader Magazine, church, church relevance, faith, family, religion | 38 Comments
Tags: Christianity, Christians, church, church relevance, faith, family, God, Politics, religion, Worship Leader Magazine, Worship Leaders
I agree with you. She should not have let this slip. That is funny how she took down the post. This is just another example of poor leadership in the so Called Christian Industry. You wonder why they are struggling to stay in business.
I don’t think the magazine is doing that well anyways. All they seem to promote is material and resources that go to the church that just cares about serving itself. They need to turn there focus outwards a bit more.
Well Christians speak of honesty, integrity and transparency, if politics is not the arena to display such values then where should they be displayed? The reaction to the Obama tee-shirt indicates just how skewed the “Right” can be on these very essential values. We have had eight years of Bush’s mis-information tactics, we have seen a Republican fiasco in terms of their own “moral” house and we have bore witness to one of the most insidious actions under any Administration, done covertly at every rung of the “political right,” yet they still carry on as the agents for G-d, in the healing of this Country? As usual the day will come when the church shall have to offer their repentance for their blind support of this exiting Administration.
esefardi, I appreciate your comment.
I need to be 100% clear here, though. I am not endorsing ANY candidate through this blog or this posting.
Just because my beliefs don’t line up with Obama’s beliefs, doesn’t mean I look down on him as a person. Personally, I don’t care a great deal for McCain’s platform either.
I think too often religion is intertwined with your party affiliation. You’re a christian so you have to be a republican. Or, you’re a republican so you must be a christian. No. That’s hogwash. I know many great christian people who, despite my best efforts, are still democrats. Guess what? I still love them.
The point of this post was not to push any political agenda, but to make the point that to endorse a candidate in a publication meant to be a resource for churches, regardless of the candidate’s position is a bad idea. But, it is an especially bad idea for a person in a leadership position at a magazine dedicated to being a resource for churches to (whether intentionally or not) endorse a candidate with values that are so fundamentally opposed to christian beliefs.
The things you say and do say a lot about you (for instance, the fact that you spelled God with a dash in place of the o tends to suggest you are probably either atheist or agnostic. Am I right?). No place is this more evident than when people start talking about religion and politics. Like I said, people tend to vote their values, so what would this say about Julie’s values?
All that said, your comment also tends to suggest you missed the point of this post entirely. This post is not about finding out what your political views are. This post was made to guage everyone’s feeling about whether or not it was appropriate for this picture to be allowed in this publication, and if not, then why does Julie still have a job?
I totally agree that the photo shouldn’t have been included in the magazine. I also agree with you in principle on what it means to follow Christ and engage the issues of life as sacred and the sanctity of marriage. But to make a judgment on the authenticity of candidates faith is presumptuous at best just because he doesn’t mentally agree with you on those 2 issues.
But there’s another problem here: you say your not endorsing any candidate- and your not in name – but your tone is not exactly neutral either. You make it evident where your political affiliation lies going so far as to imply that you put effort into converting Christians that vote Democrat but they haven’t yet “despite your best efforts.
I’m just saying your coming down pretty hard on Julie for making a political stance ( & you’re right, that photo shouldn’t have gotten by her), but when I read your post, it seems pretty politically charged (& biased) as well.
It seems to me that you are more disturbed by what you perceive as her values as reflected in the candidate on her daughter’s t-shirt than the fact that the photo was published in the magazine. Maybe that’s not the case, but it comes off that way and that notion is reinforced in the fact that you had to try to clarify the main issue in a later comment.
I passionately believe that neither left nor right or any political candidate is the hope of our future – but Christ alone is our hope no matter what the political landscape may be. I also believe that when Christian leaders endorse a candidate or platform publicly they lose their prophetic voice to address issues of morality & justice.
Adam, thank you for weighing in on the subject.
Your assesment of my posting and later comment are completely fair and I appreciate that.
The line about converting democratic friends was actually meant jokingly, though that was not made clear. I do apologize for the vagueness of some of the things I said.
What I do not apologize for is my feelings about Obama’s faith claims when (and those aren’t the only 2 issues, they are just the worst ones for me) his beliefs stand in conflict with biblical principals.
One other thing, it shoudn’t be that obvious where my affiliations lie as I already have said I’m not terribly crazy about McCain either. I will say that adding Palin to the ticket makes a bit more comfortable with him should he win.
Neither Obama or McCain has my endorsement – period.
Again, thank you for weighing in and I hope you continue to contribute here.
Blessings!
Okay this is so funny that people will argue this point. I don’t care what party you vote for, but my Savior is Jesus. All Candidates will have their flaws, because no man is perfect, but I do believe it is important to stick to biblical values as much as possible when voting. I’m sorry but Abortion is MURDER! Visit sites like http://www.Standtrue.com if you need more information. Marriage is a unity between a Man and a Woman. Two wieners do not make a baby and keep the flow of life.
The fact that Julie as a Christian Leader allowed this to happen, does not mean she is a bad person, but a bad leader. Whoever owns Worship Leader Magazine should have her removed to a non-decision making position if she has any talents at all. It makes all the artist and products look horrible that it could be branded to this endorsement. I know she can say that it is not an endorsement but that is bull. There is a picture of Obama on a t-shirt of her daughter. The message is clear. I feel bad for Chris Tomlin and the other artist that have to be featured in this issue.
I noticed the cover of the issue is Why are they leaving. To be honest they are leaving because of the crap featured in the magazine. Sorry the majority of what is covered is for the Church that cares nothing more than themselves.
Disclaimer: I do not feel as Christians to shut off to the world of homosexuality, and people that have committed abortion, but to find ways to reach out and share the Love of Christ. Everyone struggles with something in their life. It just kicks me off when Christian leaders are hypocrites
Hi, J2
I wasn’t going to comment on this since I haven’t seen the magazine, nor am familiar with it, but . . . (you knew that was coming!)
Our youth pastor, a man I truly love along with his family, has an annoying habit of mentioning his own biases (including political) during youth meetings, and by his manner, assuming that everyone agrees with him. That leaves kids, such as my daughter, embarrassed to be who they are. Whether you agree or disagree with my position on politics, church gatherings are not the place to push your political views, particularly when those views are in variance with the stated will of God and based on your own ignorance of the policies/people being promoted.
My kids (children’s church) have no idea whether I’m a Dem or Rep, though some of them, even at their tender age, have tried to push politics during children’s church. It’s just not the place for it. Push politics on your blog–that’s fine. It’s your blog and you can say what you want. Not in a magazine supposedly dedicated to an aspect of Christianity not directly related to politics and, as you said, particularly not when your politics specifically disagree with the stated will of God.
BTW, I didn’t know that writing g-d meant you were an athiest/agnostic. I was wondering whether it didn’t mean you thought the name of God was so sacred it shouldn’t be printed. Guess I was wrong.
As to Obama, you don’t have to rely on his actions or positions on issues to deduce the nature of his faith. You have only to read his own statement of faith on his own website to figure out that he isn’t a biblical Christian.
Your Sis,
Cindy
Cindy, I don’t know if I’d consider it a good topic if you didn’t comment
. I miss your insight when you’re not around.
You are absolutely right though, about everything you just said. I don’t think I could really add to what you’re saying at all other than to say thank you for your input.
I will touch on one thing though. I realize that this is my blog and can talk politics if I’d like, but I don’t really want to. Since this is a blog dedicated to topics directly relating to worship as well as other ministries within the church, I really try very hard to keep my political views out of the mix.
Sometimes, however, topics come up that deal in politics and the church (such as has just occurred here) and it gets political. What has happened though, is that I sort of got called out based on a couple of things I alluded to earlier, so I had to make the point as well as I could without taking sides that I didn’t want to use this thread to endorse anyone or push my own political agenda. Unfortunately, I suppose I didn’t do a very good job at making that clear.
Thank you Cindy for seeing the point of this topic and keeping it on topic. I appreciate it greatly!
I reiterate, we have had eight years of reprehensible behavior in the White House. It entered into government in the guise of the “moral right.” It was supported outright by the majority of the Christian Conservative fundamentalist body and it was tolerated for eight years with hardly a peep by the same Christian body.
There was no noticeable outrage on the part of the fundamentalist church or the staunch moralist in the body of conservative Christianity on any of the abuses, or any of the mis-information which was proffered, or for any of the human rights violations which were implemented by this outgoing Administration in its war efforts in Irak. Nevertheless, a tee shirt finding its way to the cover of a Christian magazine is suddenly a stumbling stone and and a cause of offense and is representative of all the moral deficiencies of the political personage it portrays? Well isn’t that very much like the proverb spoken by Yshu’a where the P’rushim were said by him to be straining out the gnats while swallowing camels?
That comparison was my point.
I too neither like McCain, Obama, or any of the other candidates which were running for the upcoming election. I expected a more pervasive depth of morality and recognition on the part of the fundamentalist bible professing leadership but like Palin’s pastor a fixation of political affiliation has been more the standard in the fundamentalist churches than the dispelling of the deceptions which became part of the group-think in the churches.
Finally, the G-d spelling, is a sign of Jewish respect for the Creator, blessed is He, rather than a sign of disrespect , agnosticism or atheism. Orientation can colour our perceptions.
esefardi, once again, what are you talking about? Are you saying that a politician running for office should run the country as if it is a church.
There is a huge difference between a politician running for the white house who SAYS he’s a christian and a person who works for a christian organization that puts out a christian magazine targeted to christians where it comes to matters of doing things that don’t speak to a desire to further God’s kingdom.
That politician could tell me all day long he’s an airling pilot too, but the second he calls the planes alerons “flap thingys”, I don’t trust him to fly me to Hawaii.
Also, you talk about misinformation and human rights violations. First, the human rights violation would have been to continue to allow Iraq’s former leader to continue to gas and torture his citizens and continue to allow his employees to continue to rape and pillage unchecked. Second, I have spoken with many troops coming back from Iraq who say the whole situation is being misrepresented by the liberal media so if you want to point your guns at someone for misinformation, point them at the media.
Third, you said there has been no response from the fundamentalist christian crowd? Have you been hiding under a rock? Here is how it works. You can say anything you want about anyone as long as you are not white or christian. The moment you start complaining and you meet either of those criteria, you are either racist or a bigot. Tell me how that is fair or exercising tolerance. The tolerant folks are the most intolerant people I’ve ever met. So, no wonder you don’t hear about the complaints that we have lodged. You have the liberal media and the “tolerant” crowds suppressing the voices of those that actually care about “The State of the Union”.
Lastly, I have told you before to keep the subject matter in focus. Start focusing on the subject instead of your personal feelings about how this country has been run or start getting deleted.
One final note, typically the G-d spelling is usually indicative of atheists or agnostics. That’s why I made that assumption. My apologies for being too quick to make an assessment on that one.
Blessings!
You say:
>>”There is a huge difference between a politician running for the white house who SAYS he’s a christian and a person who works for a christian organization that puts out a >>christian magazine targeted to christians where it comes to matters of doing things that don’t speak to a desire to further God’s kingdom.” <>”That politician could tell me all day long he’s an airling pilot too, but the second he calls the planes alerons “flap thingys”, I don’t trust him to fly me to Hawaii. Also, you talk about misinformation and human rights violations. First, the human rights violation would have been to continue to allow Iraq’s former leader to continue to gas and torture his citizens and continue to allow his employees to continue to rape and pillage unchecked. Second, I have spoken with many troops coming back from Iraq who say the whole situation is being misrepresented by the liberal media so if you want to point your guns at someone for misinformation, point them at the media. ” <<
Look, …. I think that this is faulty and circuitous self justifying reasoning which lacks the integrity, moral panorama and legality which the Holy Scripture demands of all those who will be its spokesmen in truth! I say this to my own hurt, if I am speaking presumptuously before the Hashem!
But you say you have spoken to many troops coming back from Iraq who say that the whole situation is being misrepresented by the liberal media. I’m curious, have you also spoken to many Iraki men women and children, whicjh are now bereft of family members, and have been displaced and are homeless by the thousands because of our war effort in Irak? You talk about the Liberal media as if it were a real thing and not the crafty construction of the self serving Republican agenda. Sadly Christianity has bought into the notion of a “liberal media,” lock, stock and barrel! It is no wonder that the evangelical churches have traded the Spirit of G-d and the Gospel of G-d’s Love, for the rhetoric and militancy of their Republican affiliation!
You have also said:
“Third, you said there has been no response from the fundamentalist christian crowd? Have you been hiding under a rock? Here is how it works. You can say anything you want about anyone as long as you are not white or christian. The moment you start complaining and you meet either of those criteria, you are either racist or a bigot. Tell me how that is fair or exercising tolerance. The tolerant folks are the most intolerant people I’ve ever met. So, no wonder you don’t hear about the complaints that we have lodged. You have the liberal media and the “tolerant” crowds suppressing the voices of those that actually care about “The State of the Union””<>” I have told you before to keep the subject matter in focus. Start focusing on the subject instead of your personal feelings about how this country has been run or start getting deleted.<<
I believe I have kept to the subject in focus and even more so, to the “spirit” behind the focus of your post. However, if my focus is not in agreement with the “depth of vision,” you wish to cultivate then by all means delete my comments. It won’t hurt my feelings any though I believe you have something to teach me in the course of our dialogs. Nevertheless, if you delete I will no longer read or post to your blogs. You decide the value of my input.
Ok esefardi, I’ll give you this; you bring up a valid point. The liberal media is a creation, but the question is, created by whom?
Personally, I see nothing in the media that promotes the republican agenda or does anything to forward a conservative view. It all points toward a democratic view and a liberal view of things.
Keep in mind, you have not drawn me out to see where my affiliations are. I don’t think it’s fair for the media to be one-sided from any perspective. It’s really bad for both views and this is why, if you are liberal or democrat, yes you may get your views heard, but if there is nothing to dispute your views or act as a sounding board for your beliefs, then you really lack a fundamental piece needed for objectivity and all you have to go on is to assume your theory is correct. If you are republican or conservative, then you have no outlet for any ideas you may have.
However, I still assert that the path you seem to want to go down is inappropriate for this particular thread. I believe that this is a valid and relevant discussion that should continue, but I think I should start a thread on this subject to keep the issues where they belong and in context.
You seem highly intelligent and offer some great input and I do value your input, but surely you can see my point here.
One final thought, you asked a great question. No, I have not spoken to any Iraqi citizens on the subject, but I would love to. I would love to get that perspective. All I have to go on are the accounts of the soldiers I have spoken with who say that the bulk of the Iraqi folks that they had contact with loved them.
If you know of any that would be interested in this dialogue, let me know. I will gladly create a thread to accomodate this conversation.
Hello Friends -
Two things:
1. I realize I’m coming in late to this discussion and that it’s moved on from the topic of the photo included in the September issue of Worship Leader but there’s two things I’d like to address. See one below.
2. You’d think after reading this chain that I’d be smarter than to reply. See two below. =)
1. I subscribe to the magazine, I saw the photo and was surprised to see the Obama shirt since I too feel that all liberals and democrats are baby-murdering homosexuals. (Just kidding, but are you?) However I then READ THE ARTICLE. It stated ‘It is an exciting time in our family; two of my three children will vote in their first presidential election this year. We are watching both of our college-aged kids become very active in the electoral process, and we have been surrounded by many politically- active Millennials who are from both ends of the political spectrum. They are having conversations about social justice, the economy, equal protection, the death penalty, HIV/AIDS, the environment, wealth, poverty, race, religion—you name it, they are talking about it. And to be honest it has really excited us as parents to see them so enthusiastic—to watch them engage with issues that intersect our faith and the public square.’
So the photo accurately depicts what the article is saying “We’re excited that our kids are into politics in fact here’s a picture of my daughter supporting HER political view.” It doesn’t say that Julie Reid is a Obama follower, it doesn’t say she’s proud of her daughter for being liberal. It doesn’t say what her other child’s views are. It says she’s proud that her kids are engaging their peers in political and social discussions.
And did you catch this line “we have been surrounded by many politically-active Millennials who are *from both ends of the political spectrum*”? It really is true that a picture speaks a thousand words. Shouts them over the whisper apparently.
2. You’d think I’d be smarter than to reply to this post. j2nice78 has been gracious in owning up when called on the carpet here (the G-d thing, the joking about converting her Dem friends, and the winner below) but she has made the exact same mistakes in this post/chain than Julie Reid did in her editorial and like Julie had to follow up with apologies and explanations. For example:
“I didn’t want to use this thread to endorse anyone or push my own political agenda. Unfortunately, I suppose I didn’t do a very good job at making that clear.” =)
So why should I be smarter than to reply? Because if you waive your freedom of speech, clam up and say nothing, you’re perfectly safe. But if you write an editorial, post a photo, write a blog, exercise your freedom of speech — wear a tee-shirt with your views on it — then you are putting yourself out there for attack by people with opposing views and a platform to express them from. Julie Reid could have played it safe and avoided this attack, but she didn’t. J2nice78 could have stayed silent but she felt strongly enough to engage. If you stand up you’re gonna get shot at. So I should have been smart and kept my head down… but I didn’t. =)
Dave
Dave, thank you for your input and you are absolutely correct in all you just said. Also thank you for helping me make the point that this thread has strayed off course. If you would like, I would love your help in getting it back on course
.
Also, why does everyone assume I am female even though I point out in my about me section that I am a happily married man with 2 children? Don’t worry, I’m not upset about it, I actually find it amusing.
Maybe it’s my eloquence with words……
Ha! Sorry about that. I think perhaps I unconsciously translated your screen name to “Janice”.
Dave
So, I’m def NOT an Obama supporter, but it seems to me that an Obama t-shirt wouldn’t be all that strange of a thing for a youth to wear right now. Especially if the picture is going with an article about youth leaving the community of believers.
Ease up. The magazine is great and there is a lot of fruit from it’s ministry/business.
Came in a bit late didn’t you Cole? Besides… I’ve not seen anything that looked like fruit coming from that crowd. No offense.
Thanks for responding though.
There is no excuse for any Christian who puts ahead of God, Christ and the Word, ANYTHING he/she does, be it voting, working, daily activities. Racial preferences, political differences, opinions, attitudes, etc. that conflict with His Will and Word are not excuses. Remember, when you repent of sins, God is looking for a true heart of repentance, not excuses. And God takes prayers, not advice from His creatures.
It is true that many Christians have been failed by their clergy and do not have a good grounding in the Word. But seek and ye shall find, if ye seek with all your heart. And pray.
Thou shalt not murder.
Sen. Obama made it quite clear publicly on many occasions that he will sign into law a no-holds-barred abortion rights law ASAP: anytime, any female of any age, any fetus of any age, no questions asked, no interference from anyone allowed.
Is this difficult to understand?
Consider also these verses in re to other things that already are being taught to school children without parents’ consent, starting at age 5 and up:
Matthew 18:6,7,10
6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones who believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of My Father Which is in heaven.
Matthew 25:40,45
40)….Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
45)….Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not unto me.
So have we banished President elect Obama to hell yet? Because it certainly seems that in the minds of the majority of people speaking on this thread that that is the only appropriate place for him?
It is literally stunning, the presumption that this man does not know OR love God. I submit that none of US know the sincerity of his profession of faith, but according to the word of God, the bible states in clear terms: Rom. 10:9-10 9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou SHALT BE SAVED. 10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation; this is the promise of God to all of us who sincerely and earnestly profess Christ. Yet even after we make this profession, we still by reason of being human flesh must grapple with sin, it is an ongoing struggle that will not abate until we go home to be with God…we all struggle with sin, but we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous who makes intercession for us both day and night, the word of God declares this.
So what I’d like to know is why the majority of you think that your salvation is somehow more authentic than his? Haven’t we all fallen short of the Glory of God, haven’t we all needed to repent from something, haven’t YOU needed to pray for the mercy of God for something you did that you knew displeased His heart…WE ALL HAVE!!! Regardless of your party affiliation.
Above being Republicans, Democrats or Independents, we are the Children of God, members of the household of faith. It is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit to convict our hearts of sin and to lead us to godly sorrow and thus repentance, and if you are the stronger saint, then it is your responsibility to bear the infirmity of the weak. Surely we don’t wink at sin, but we are also admonished not to think of our own selves more highly than we ought. It was again Paul who said that we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard lest at any time we should let them slip. We all have a responsibility to examine our own hearts. And when we do share our faith, we have to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in the hearts of men, all we can do is lay the ground work, that’s true for O’bama and it’s true for Julie’s daughter (although, I don’t mean to imply that it is a sin to be a Democrat).
The apostle Paul said in Romans 7:16-23 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Paul then went on to ask the question, oh wretched man that I am, WHO shall deliver me from this body of death and then, almost in the same breath, he answers his own question. He says, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Apart from Christ, we are all doomed…all of US! …and we are all, at this very moment, working through something!
As a believer, I am stunned and appalled at some of the postings I have read on this blog site. I don’t know Barak O’bama, or John McCain or Sarah Palin, for that matter. I don’t know what they believe and I don’t know to any great detail the moral compass that navigates their lives (and may I submit that neither do any of you) all I can identify is what they have been willing to disclose in the public domain and whatever SMALL insight that affords me, but I don’t know them. Essentially, all I have from them is what I have from you, a claim to have professed Christ.
I am in no more greater position to examine their hearts than I am to examine yours. What I do know is that I have voted for both parties, the republicans more recently. I have a husband in the United States Marine Corps who is currently serving his second tour in Iraq, and no matter what side of the war you come down on, we as the American people were lied to repeatedly by (republicans) this administration to all of our alarm and regret (shock and awe). We were deceived! And what is astounding to me is the blind willingness to award the so called “conservative right” with the people’s trust time and again regardless of their reckless and unchecked disregard for what is right for this great nation.
When “W” came to office, he had a $128 billion dollar surplus to work with and the projected estimates for 2009 alone (when he effectively is out of office) is a record $490 billion, that doesn’t take into account our total national deficit, again, that just accounts for 2009. American’s are loosing their jobs, their homes, their health care and are grappling with decisions like whether they should buy groceries or gas, whether they should buy medicine or pay utility bills…it’s crazy! All this on a republican’s watch! And I might add that until 2006, the republicans had control of the Congress. We have hinged all of our common sense on a small number of issues, that YES are VERY important, but don’t begin to address or include all of the VERY real and important moral issues of our day that are equally life threatening and because we have refused to expand our narrow scope, these very important issues don’t get addressed…and unfortunately, people are dying…babies, teens, adults and the elderly who otherwise may not have if we gave equal attention to the issues that affect their lives. Of course I come down on the side of life and believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and I believe equally that these are issues we must fight to protect. I just think that the fight is bigger than that… our call is greater than that.
Equally amazing to me was the fact that the republicans ran a very dishonorable campaign, and although this is their trademark, this year was particularly nasty and provocative. For a party to claim that they are representative of moral excellence and that they have the ear of God, the tactics that were engaged left me fravely concerned for the progress that we have made in race relations over the years…I mean there are NO words. As people of God, we have NO business race baiting and stoking peoples fears and stirring up racial animosity all for the purpose of political gain…I was shocked! Literally, they called Mr. O’bama everything except the “N” word… and I am sure that in circles given to that type of thinking that word was probably thrown around with astounding frequency and great comfort and ease. I said all this to say that the bible admonishes us to put no confidence in the flesh (democratic, independent or republican) because (Jeremiah 17:9-10 says:) 9 the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
What Julie did was allow her daughter the opportunity to engage in the free exchange of ideas and to assert her right to think and decide for herself. Whether you agree with her daughters’ politics or not, her right to express herself is covered under the first amendment. And I believe that Julie made it clear that her daughters’ views were not her own. Julie has done her part in raising her daughter, and now it is the job of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide her into all truth; for surely her mom has given her the tools to choose between right and wrong. So, don’t condemn Julie. When children come of age, as parents we just have to trust that we have done all that God would have us to do and that the prayers along with the guidance we have invested will make all the difference in the end. I think that when we behave in a manner that has the potential to bring reproach on the name of God it grieves Him… and we just have to be so careful of that… that’s my two cents. Thank you for hearing me.
Hello All.
Wow! This is my very first encounter with this blog (with any blog for that matter). I found this entire string enlightening; however also disturbing that such an intelligent person could be so misguided (esefardi). May our Father in heaven bless you abundantly, esefardi. I pray that God softens your heart to what j2nice78 has been trying to show you – the difference between right and wrong, not liberal/democrat or conservative/republican.
God’s word is very clear on abortion (murder) and marriage (between one man and one woman). Personally, regardless of political affiliation, I find it extremely difficult to support a leader who hasn’t lead anything except his recent campaign. November 5th, upon awaking and hearing the outcome of the election, God told me that I now was given the opportunity to pray more fervantly, especially for the president-elect.
To bring this back around to the original discussion of Julie Reid, if she made an error in judgement, she should have said so, rather than say that the photo got by her. Either stand up for what you write or don’t write. Considering the target audience of the magazine, it was in extremely poor judgement (and taste).
I sincerely do pray that we seek our Father’s truths in His devine word. He is a loving God, not a dem nor a rep…
Thunderstorm blessings on all.
gpark1963
PS – Isn’t Billy Graham (one of the greatest Christian Evangelists) a democrat? Its not about your party affiliation, folks. Its all about God and serving Him with the best of your abilities (which come from Him anyway through His word).
Carla Marie, all I have to say is the following:
1) You can know a Christ follower by their fruit.
2) Hebrews 10:26-27 – give it a read
3) John 14:21
He bears no good fruit from a biblical perspective, he continues to sin deliberately and not only do it deliberately but wants to pass laws to force people to cooperate with these sins deliberately, which in turns means he is not keeping God’s commands and if he is not… HE DOES NOT LOVE GOD!
gpark1963, thank you. Really, that’s all I know to say right now is thank you, greatly.
1. j2nice78 on November 10, 2008 said:
Carla Marie, all I have to say is the following:
1) You can know a Christ follower by their fruit. (What kind of fruit are you bearing?)
2) Hebrews 10:26-27 – give it a read (I did)
3) John 14:21 (I John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us) (John 15:5 “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me, ye can do nothing.” …including love Him (the Lord)
He bears no good fruit from a biblical perspective, he continues to sin deliberately and not only do it deliberately but wants to pass laws to force people to cooperate with these sins deliberately, which in turns means he is not keeping God’s commands and if he is not… HE DOES NOT LOVE GOD!
J2nice78, all I can say is WOW!!! It’s amazing, you sound like an authority on a man that you literally have NEVER met, and I wonder how can that be? You are making definitive, declarative…conclusive statements about the condition of a man’s heart whom you’ve never had the occasion to meet or talk to personally… EVER! I find that astounding.
To infer with certainty that HE DOES NOT LOVE GOD, WOW!!! without so much as a single exchange of views, conversation, or opportunity to examine from a close perspective the belief system to which he subscribes is at the height of spiritual arrogance; it is amazing and more importantly, it is one of the major reasons that so many unbelievers do not want the Christ that we have to offer because we make these wild assumptions before ever knowing anything about their personal stories and then in the same broad brush stroke, we condemn them.
You THINK that you know Barak Obama, but you don’t! And even IF you did and your assumption was right, that he does not know God…that he does not love God, aren’t we as believers charged with the responsibility of sharing the message of reconciliation? The bible says as you have received Christ, so ye are to walk in Him. I don’t know you, nor do I know what’s going on in your heart, but just going by what you have written in this blog, it sounds like you feel a sense of vindication that this “infidel” is going to get what he deserves. But that isn’t the reason why Christ came…He came to SEEK and to SAVE the lost, not to revel in their condemnation.
The bible says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly…that was YOU, that was ME!!! If he isn’t saved, if he doesn’t love God, you ought to want to weep for his soul-pray for his soul! not hunker down in your self-righteousness as if some how you are better. It is because of God’s mercy and grace, not any great thing that YOU did to save yourself. And at the end of the day even if you didn’t vote for him, which by your commentary regarding him, I think it is a safe bet that you didn’t, he is still going to be your president and the word of God in I Timothy 2:1-3 (“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.”) calls us to pray them who are in authority over us. That’s the word! Where is your mercy? Or have you forgotten that “but for the mercy of God there go I” (you).
You talk about murder, and by reason of support or association of/to abortion, murderers, but wasn’t Moses a murderer, wasn’t King David a murderer, wasn’t Saul who later became Paul, the greatest Apostle to ever live and is responsible for writing thirteen books of the bible, wasn’t he a murderer too?…and yet, the mercy of God was extended to them, yet God Choose them. The bible says that David was a man after God’s own heart…an ex-murderer, after the heart of God…huh, go figure! Thank God for the blood of Jesus and His AMAZING GRACE!
I submit to you that had not Christ been made to be sin, we would never have been able to be made the righteousness of God. It is because God loved us while we were yet mired in sin that He sent His only begotten son…Eph. 2:8-10 for by grace are you saved through faith; and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God and not of works lest ANY man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. J2nice78, you did NOTHING to merit the LOVE, MERCY, GRACE or FAVOR of God, He simply willed it to be so, so don’t be smug.
By the way, I did read Hebrews 10:26-27 and I noticed also that you said that you can know a tree by the fruit that it bears and I just wonder if YOU have checked YOUR FRUIT???? I believe that we make judgments of things and people everyday, right or wrong…I’ll even go as far as to say that it is necessary in many instances to judge things, people and situations, however, if you have not examined your own heart and are not ready to be judged then you are unqualified to judge others:
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1) Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Not calling you a hypocrite in any way nor do I mean to be disparaging, but I have to admit that I felt compelled to weigh in on this discussion (not because of a T-shirt, I don’t care about a T-shirt) because it felt very mean spirited, regardless of whether you believe that Obama is saved or not, that isn’t even the issue; You are the reflection of Christ and as such, your responsibility as an ambassador of Christ, is to demonstrate through word, spirit and gesture the character of Christ and I would just admonish you to pray for him…if you believe that he doesn’t know or love the Lord, pray for his soul…pray that God would do a work in his heart and redirect his path so that he may know him…that’s all I am saying.
Many thanks again for hearing me out. Carla Marie…redeem the time!
…And still no one has commented on why they think their walk with God is more authentic than the president elect’s. When you take into account all of your faults, flaws and shortcomings couldn’t some make the charge against you that you don’t love God that you are an imposter? Yes, we should reprove sin, but we should also remember that everyday we are in need of Jesus’ intercession. That new mercy that God gives to each morning is never wasted because we all need it…everyday that we live. We have all sinned and falling short. Thank the Lord for His grace and mercy, for without it we are among men most miserable…ALL OF US!!!!
PEACE OUT!
Carla Marie, you are absolutely right about ONE thing, that we do need to pray for Obama. I never said we don’t and I never said I don’t pray for him, because I do.
I also have never said that he CAN”T love God, I said he doesn’t. If you read scripture and look at his actions, it’s not a judgement, it’s a truth.
You seem to keep forgetting a key element of receiving the free gift of salvation, you have to REPENT of your sins. OBVIOUSLY, he is not repentant, as he is not only not turning from his ways, but he is planning to pass laws to force us into the same lifestyle and allow these things.
Also, never once have I said I DON”T sin, that would be a lie. I am uncomfortable in sin and ALWAYS repent and ask forgiveness. Obama is obviously not uncomfortable in sin since he is planning to pass laws to require us to allow it.
Besides, we have only really talked about one sin he is forcing on us. There are many more.
AND, you are pretty quick to point out everyone else’s flaws here and speak just as definitively as anyone else in this forum and you want to throw out the phrase “self-righteous” as if you have justification to do so?
Look, Obama CAN change and serve God, but he isn’t now and it’s obvious he doesn’t love God. Is he going to hell? I don’t know. But my PERSONAL note PERSONAL belief is that he is and that if he doesn’t, he’s only going to get into heaven by the skin of his teeth. I really hope he doesn’t go to hell. I don’t want to see a single person suffer that eternal torment.
As for anyone here explaining why their faith is any more authentic than Obama’s faith, why would you WANT to see that? So you can back them into a corner and call them self-righteous hypocrites because it makes you feel better about YOUR self-righteous judgements? You have tried to back me into that corner and I will NOT play that game.
I am as forthright a person as you are ever going to meet. I will be the first to admit my shortcomings. I have BEEN that backwards person who claimed to be a Christian and still continued to commit terrible sins with no remorse for them. I know what it is to be that person and I know what it is to turn from those sins and find a REAL, HONEST relationship with God. So, I of all people would never condemn someone to hell. If someone had measured my lifestyle against the bible in those days, you would have found I didn’t really love God the way I said I did either and it wouldn’t have been a judgement it would have been a truth.
Obama CAN change, but it’s going to take FERVENT PRAYER from believers. Can you commit to that?
By the way, I will not say that you can ever know where a persons heart IS, but I WILL assert that you can know where it’s NOT by looking at their actions.
Carla Marie, I will always hear people out and it’s my pleasure to do so. Thank you for commenting and be blessed!
No, j2nice78 it is not obvious, that’s MY POINT. The Bible itself is a book about choices if you want to get down to the fundamentals, obviously, it’s more than that but your decision to come to Christ is predicated upon choice-choosing to serve God or man, your own purposes or His. God says in the book of Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Further, in the book of Joshua 24:15 where Joshua clearly states his choice, the bible says and if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord. In Luke 9:23, Jesus said if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me…He is requiring you to choose between Him or yourself…Choice! The Lord Himself does not force us to serve Him even though to choose not to is to choose a hellish fate. I point this out because, you’ve hinged this man’s eternal salvation on two issues that, if the truth be told, say nothing of the condition of his faith or heart.
I quoted you correctly, you said that Mr. Obama does not love God and I asked how could you make such a declarative statement? You couldn’t possibly know what is in that man’s heart to be able to speak so definitively,… so authoritatively. Whether you agree with Mr. Obama’s point of view on the life issue or not, what he believes is that few women make the decision to terminate a pregnancy casually; that in contemplating abortion pregnant women feel the full force of the moral ramifications involved when making that decision, and he fears a ban on abortion would force women to seek unsafe abortions, as they once did in this country.
His position is how can we protect life on both sides of the issue. He believes that we’ve actually made progress over the last several years in reducing teen pregnancies, for example. And what he’s consistently talked about is taking a comprehensive approach where we focus on abstinence, where we are teaching the sacredness of sexuality to young people and encouraging them to wait until marriage.
He believes that by doing these things, we can actually reduce the number of abortions in this country drastically all while making sure that we do every thing in our power to make adoption an option. I don’t know that that is necessarily a right or a wrong position to take, as I stated before, I come down on the side of life. But one could argue that so does he. I am certainly not advocating abortion, I will, however, say though that abortion is a sin issue and people sin and even if Roe v. Wade were reversed, we’d still be dealing with the issue of sexual sin, and I don’t know that you can legislate that. People have to choose to serve God, they have to choose to love Him and when a soul experiences a true conversion, they begin making God honoring choices.
I didn’t mean to insult you with the self-righteous reference and I apologize to have offended you, I simply wanted to point out that when we come across as though we know more than we know, it gives the air of superiority and I think we all have to be careful of that. This argument is not about me or you in the end, as far as I am concerned, it’s about how do we represent Christ and how do we convey Christ to the world? It’s about caring for the lost regardless of their sin, how do we reach them? If we reject them and discard them on the basis of their sin are we not ourselves sinning?…
Just food for thought…lol j2nice78
Hi, Carla
I read Obama’s statement of faith on his campaign site. I don’t know if it’s still available–likely not. Too bad I didn’t copy it, but I can tell you that as far as what the New Testament recognizes as a follower of Christ, he is not. If you want to re-write the New Testament and insert a different Jesus with different words, different focus, etc., then yes, I suppose you could say he is a Christ follower–just not the Christ of the NT.
RE legislating morality, all legislation does this. Without morality of some sort, there can be no basis for legislation. Even if you were a self-serving despot, your laws would be based on the questionable morality: “It’s all about me!” All laws are based on morality. Most of the laws in the USA are based on the Judeo Christian ethic.
Some things we have tried to legislate and found that we could not are sexual habits, drinking habits, women’s clothing, etc. Is it worthwhile to legislate on a matter such as abortion? I say yes. We have laws against tipping your newborn into the dumpster, yet people still do it. Not many, but some. We have laws against murdering your ex-husband, yet people still do it. Not that many, but some. If we had laws against abortion, would people still do it? Yes. Not that many, if the penalties were serious enough, but some certainly would. If you wish to legalize abortion in any context as Pres Elect Obama does wish to do, then logically, you should at least provide for the elimination of all these other inconvenient people–at least in some circumstances. I personally can think of a few such people I wouldn’t weep for too vigorously. They have done bad things and behaved hatefully. The babies have done nothing, good or bad.
Mind, I agree with Mr. O’s suggestion (given in word, though negated in his own voting record) that we need to love and care for girls who find themselves “in trouble,” making it easier for them to carry their responsibility, but helping girls and women kill their babies more easily and conveniently is not help.
God gives us choices. Governments limit those choices with legislation in the interest of maintaining a society where people can live and work in reasonable safety and security (well, that is the goal of what we would call “good” governments, at least). The question here is not so much a question of choice as it is a question of which citizens of a society deserve protection. Legislation is designed to protect people from being exploited by other people. Which people should be protected?
Should women be protected from exploitation and rape? Should shopkeepers be protected from thieves? Should homeowners be protected from house invasion? Should pedestrians be protected from drunken drivers? Should babies be protected from being shaken violently? Should the unborn be protected from being ripped limb from limb?
Only in the last instance do we, in this society, answer in the negative. We have thus decided that the unborn alone in our society deserve no protection. Even animals receive more protection than unborn humans, in that their killing must at the least be done in a humane fashion.
I don’t question your sincerity or your stand for life. I just think that you may not have thought this one through completely. It’s easy to get caught up in the moment and in the charisma of a great, even legendary speaker. But no, Obama does not care about the unborn. If he does, then I fervently hope he does not care about me or my loved ones. I can do without that kind of care.
Thank you Cindy. You said what I wanted to say with much more eloquence than I could have said it with. And I think I may have exercised a lack of patience in a couple of my responses here as well.
To Carla, yes we are talking about the abortion issue, but as I pointed out in an earlier comment to you, it is only one of many actions of Obama that point to a lack of love for God (it just happens to be the one I find to be the most obvious lack of respect for God’s creation).
I would also point out (in case you haven’t realized it) that the issue with abortion is not just that he wants to legalize it, he wants to make it so that a young girl doesn’t have to have her parents consent and she doesn’t even have to tell her parents. This is dangerous for many reasons, not the least of which includes the fact that a sexual predator can now get a girl pregnant and then force her to have an abortion and her parents are none the wiser.
Another thing is that Obama wants to approve abortion to the point where children who survive abortions will be delivered – even all the way up to full term – then laid in a linen closet to die. It’s already been done, and some of these babies live up to 8 hours just laying there on the table starving and freezing to death. You’re telling me that’s not forcing us to allow murder? It’s also cruel and unusual. What happened to everyone’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Do babies not have that right?
As Cindy said, who needs protection the most? I would say the ones that cannot defend themselves.
Again, this is just one in a long list of actions of Obama that indicate that he is not a Christian.
I too read his statement of faith, so I know where Cindy is coming from. Cindy, I’ll see if I can find somewhere someone who copied and posted it and I’ll post a copy of it here.
By the way folks, once again we have strayed off target. I’m not sure how this became a forum about Obama. The post was about a picture in a magazine that shouldn’t have been there. Did we forget?
Good evening Cindy, good evening j2nice78. yes, I too have read Obama’s statement of faith and honestly, I think that how you interpret it largely depends on the lens through which you read it. Honestly, I don’t know how you derive from his statement of faith that he is an unbeliever, but I suppose If you are predisposed to believing that Mr. Obama does not love or know God, it will be hard for you to conclude anything else. And let me just say, I read the same bible you read…you do read the Holy Bible, right? (I don’t want to make a blind Ass-umption so I hope that you do understand why I would even dare to ask.) I would not be so arrogant or presumptuous as to attempt a re-write of God’s mind (word)… So while your sarcasm is duly noted, that was not where I was going.
Your filter lends itself to the notion that he is scary, and therefore his views are to be feared-that He IS TO BE FEARED, and I am saying that As a believer myself, I think that you have to objectively hear and examine, without bias, what his views are without the fear that YOU are some how losing something. This is not about you, j2nice78 or me. As funny as this whole dialogue has become, I actually agree with you. In essence, you echo my closely held beliefs on the right to life.
I am laughing because I couldn’t have put it more succinctly. I mean you have managed to condense, in a few words, what most people feel on the right to life issue and the need, if not the responsibility, to protect the unborn, so we are not at issue; my point in this whole conversation is and has been, all along, that no one represented on this blog can know what is in this man’s heart neither do you know what his relationship is with God and to say that he is not a Christian solely on the basis of what you have gotten second, third or fourth hand through biased right wing media groups (to which I have subscribed) is disingenuous, lazy and unfair.
You accuse me of having gotten caught up in the eloquence of good speech writing/delivery and the thrill of the moment, but I tell you, you couldn’t be more wrong. My motivation for weighing in on this blog was how mean spirited the tone of it was, that’s the only reason. Like I said in an earlier comment, I don’t know Mr. Obama and the likelihood of me ever meeting him is probably one in a million or slimmer, but what I do know is that even if Mr. Obama IS unsaved, we should not revel in that possibility rather, as I said before, if you believe that he doesn’t know God, that beliefs alone should drive you to your knees and you should commit to praying for the saving of his soul, and more so, because he will be at the helm of American leadership and therefore directly impacting the lives of the living and the unborn. And the fact that you sound so unaffected by that question says something about you.
To the contrary, I have thought about the question of the right to choose vs. the right to life and I choose life… I’m just not sure that I am ready to suggest that if a person who says that he or she loves and knows God and comes down on the side of choice is an infidel or that supporting choice necessarily means that you cannot know and love God.
And j2nice78, you answered your own question, we got here (on the Barak Obama discussion) because of Julie’s daughter who was expressing her first amendment right by wearing a picture of the candidate whom she supported on her T-shirt (whose image spurred on this spirited exchange).
What Julie did was allow her daughter the opportunity to engage in the free exchange of ideas and to assert her right to think and decide for herself. Whether you agree with her daughters’ politics or not, like it or not, her expression is a constitutional right! And I believe that Julie made it clear, as I stated before, that her daughters’ views were not her own. That picture had EVERY RIGHT to be in that magazine, AND it is protected speech. When we start telling people what they can and cannot say we begin infringing upon the very freedoms that we all, not only enjoy, but hold dear. I do, however, think it is time to agree to disagree, whilst still loving each other in the love of the Lord!
It’s been real, and remember to make every moment count. Time is of the essence, therefore, redeem the time!
Thank you for such a spirited exchange. No harm-No Foul.
Carla Marie, out!
Ok… as briefly as I can put it, because your oblivion is absolutely maddening to me,
I have already told you, I don’t know where his heart IS but I know where it isn’t.
Are you telling me that if a man is cheating on his wife with a different woman every week and never shows any remorse for it, you can still possibly think that he really loves his wife? Yeah, his heart is obviously with HER, it’s just his penis that isn’t.
Second, you talk about where I get my opinion from as if YOU know ME. Isn’t that precisely what you are condemning me for? I get my opinion from objective research. I don’t know which version of Obama’s statement of faith YOU read, but his original differs greatly from the one that is on his site now (you know the one he used to sway the Christian vote). By the way, I didn’t read his original on someone else’s “right wing” blog or anywhere else, I got it from HIS website. So squash that thought.
Third, YOU are the one coming on condemning everyone.
Fourth, did I or did I not just get through saying that we NEED to pray for him. Where in the heck did you get that I am unphased by his unbelief?
Fifth, on to Julie, OF COURSE she had the right to put that picture in there, this thing has never been about her right to do so. This is about her choice to do so. Are you telling me that, even though he has a right to do so, if your pastor got up on Sunday morning and said to the congregation “I know the bible says adultery is wrong, but I think I should be able to f**k anybody I want anytime I want and if you belief otherwise your a f**king idiot” that you would still respect him and attend his church? I don’t think so. The bible tells us that “what is lawful for me is not always expedient for me”. Think about it.
Sixth, obviously I’m not the only one who thinks it was wrong for her to push politics in a magazine geared toward Christian leaders, because if you check the Worship Leader Magazine website, Julie is no longer on the roster of employees.
No offense dear, but it seems as though you are the one with a dirty filter if you can see all these things.
And, I am not a bit scared of Obama in the white house… GOD IS STILL ON HIS THRONE and there is NOTHING Obama or you or anyone else is going to do about it.
Blessings
Hi, Carla Marie
If by “Holy Bible” you mean the authorized version, that might be your problem. I feel sure you are young, and as a young person, you would most likely enjoy one of the newer versions. I grew up with the AV (or KJV) and I think I understand it as well as most people my age, but it is neither the most accurate nor certainly the most readable of translations available. I really like the Holman Christian Standard Bible, but the New Living Translation is also quite good. If you love the poetry, you could go with the New KJV, but it’s still harder to comprehend (and less accurate) than the more modern versions.
I hope that J2 will be able to find that statement of faith for Barack. Then we might have something to talk about. If it makes you feel better, I think that many politicians fake Christianity as a career measure, Republicans as well as Democrats. The Republicans tend to be better at it, as they mostly do know at least know someone who once knew a Christ follower.
If you’ll take a moment to research Liberation Theology, you’ll see that, whether it applies to African Americans, women, or any other group, it is not biblical Christianity any more than Unitarianism, Watchtower, or Mormonism are. It’s a case of; if they’re right, I’m wrong. We can’t both be right because we contradict one another on vital points. They have a different Jesus. That doesn’t mean they’re evil people (or at least, no more evil than any unredeemed people), but it does mean that we can’t both be right. I think I’m right. If I thought otherwise, I’d change my mind. Obviously.
As to the T-shirt, you have to consider the publication. In many Christian publications, such a photo would be welcome, but this one was targeted toward people who would prefer not to see that sort of thing. Just as you wouldn’t appreciate seeing graphic photos of the severed heads and limbs of aborted babies in a liberal publication, the subscribers of this publication didn’t appreciate knowing that at least one of the editors approved someone who approves that sort of carnage. I know my saying this is going to hurt your feelings, and that’s not my goal, but it’s simply true.
Obamas supporters seem to hold him in a very tender part of their hearts. They are, by and large, easily offended by any adverse mention of their favorite politician. I think that, in a couple of years, many of them will have discovered that their hopes were, perhaps, based on infatuation rather than on facts. I have been infatuated several times in my life, and in all cases the object of my infatuation proved disappointing. This is particularly unfortunate when you have already gotten married to the person in question only to discover he didn’t feel the devotion to you that you felt toward him.
May God richly bless you, Carla Marie
Cindy
Such language, REALLY! A meltdown is not necessary, it’s over the top, and most unbecoming. That’s the first thing children do when they have run out of steam or can’t adequately express themselves; they resort to fits…tantrums even, then they start name calling and resorting to colorful language…sort of like you just did.
J2, no need to get mad, angry or come unglued. It’s just not that serious! I have grown tired of trying to drive home a point that seems to elude you time and again. It has become conspicuously apparent that you’re inept at perceiving the main thesis of my argument. So, I yield to the next dancer, maybe he/she won’t mind you battering their proverbial toes.
Although Obama has been at the center of this over extended―overblown conversation, really, for the sake of argument, he could be ANYBODY. My point is less about him and more about the presumption and arrogance with which you, and others like you, garb yourselves.
The bottom line is that sin is sin no matter how and through whom it expresses itself, and for any of us to assume that we can determine who is accepted of God and who isn’t on the basis of our own sin-o-meter is simply error! One thing is true, however, God will separate the wheat from the tares. But when a person professes Christ, you have NO WAY of knowing the sincerity of his or any other person’s commitment to God. Even when a person has all the lingo down, attends Church every Sunday and through the week… studies the bible religiously from cover to cover and dots all the right I’s and crosses every T, you still don’t know, and to assert that you do, again is ERROR! So as far as I am concerned, all of the scenarios you present here is static.
Further, your latest rant reminds me of this important scripture, 1 Corinthians 13: 1-10, and it encapsulates everything that I have been trying to say all along, please read:
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
As I said before, when I initially responded to the conversation, my comments were not directed at any particular person, so to the extent that you personalized them is a matter that you’ll have to take up with yourself. I said, and I still say that the tone that was effected on the blog was callous and unfeeling toward a person that whether you like him, love him, hate him or are indifferent to him you still have a responsibility of demonstrating the character of Jesus Christ, which is a broader issue.
To tell you the truth, when I logged on, I was doing so simply to check out the pastor’s blog, I love Pastor MacDonald and wanted to see what he was talking about. It was only out of curiosity that I clicked on to this particular link, and I was disheartened at some of the comments that were being tossed around.
As believers, whether some one is saved or not, we are charged with being the light in a dark world, and living our lives and governing our words and behaviors in manner that is reflective of Christ, we are living epistle read of men and that should mean something. So that if a “person” is lost, when he/she looks at us and observes our lives they ought to be able to see Christ in us and be drawn to the light that emits from our lives. That was not my impression as I perused the site, and had I been an unbeliever visiting the site, I might have been turned off. (A tid-bit that should not be disregarded as mindless chatter).
My reference to Obama is not about infatuation or warm fuzzies, he really could have been… anybody, and I would have taken the same position. I was just stunned at what people were saying. I was not condemning anyone, and if I made you feel that way J2, you have my earnest apology.
I know that you would love to believe that I am oblivious because that would mean that you don’t have to examine you. Actually, I am quite clear. It is not me that has missed the point, I understand that people see and hear what they want and choose to comfort themselves in ignorant bliss and that’s okay,…that’s your prerogative, but let’s just be poignantly clear we don’t have a heaven or hell to put anyone in, but how we behave will either drive or draw those who are lost to or from the Christ that we profess to love and serve, and you never know what kind of impression you are leaving on people whether you encounter them in person, in passing or on a blog site.
Hi Cindy, I don’t want to be presumptuous and assume anything about you, your age, what you know or don’t know. I don’t even know if your rash assumption about my age, and by inference, my naïveté should be dignified with a response…I’ll only say that it’s interesting that you would surmise that I am a child based upon my perspective in this exchange…it’s almost condescending…huh! I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt.
I too love the King James Version, I have been reading it since I received Christ at 13, that was 29 years ago. I have a special affinity towards it because it is what I grew up studying as a new believer, it has been my preference from then until now.
I think that the straining at a knat has gone on far too long in this conversation, and I for one am done. I am so disinterested in the pointing of fingers, the fault finding and whose moral ground is higher than the other.
For the sake of argument, if it is more important to be right, then I yield. My point in this dialogue was simply to say that we have a responsibility as believers to be compassionate, to be kindhearted and to represent Christ in the earth in a way that does not bring reproach on His name. We ought to care, in our conversation, disposition and mannerisms about people who are lost even when we disagree with their lifestyles.
As I said, we could have been talking about a man on the moon and I would have expressed the same concerns, the T-shirt with Obama’s image just so happen to generate conversation about Obama himself, but really it could have been anybody…it could have been Sarah Palin!
As for the magazine, you know, I live(d) in the nation’s capital. My husband and I are on a two year tour here in California as he serves in the Marine Corps. But anyway, I live(d) in the nation’s capital and I’m sure you know that people come to protest, rally and march on Washington fairly frequently and some represent some of the most heinous movements in this country, The descend on Washington to call attention to their cause and make there voices heard on a broad array of things, and as repugnant as there philosophies and persuasions may be, they still have a right to assemble whether the people of that city agree or disagree.
I understand that it was not something that the readers may have wanted to see reflected in a magazine directed at believers, but again, I think that the broader point to Julie’s story was missed.
I said this yesterday , but again, I think that we MUST agree to disagree and end this exchange and move on to something more productive.
Be blessed, Carla Marie
Unbelievable. Just utterly unbelievable.
Carla Marie, are you really that high and mighty?
That was NOT a meltdown, it was one more attempt to make a point which, while you were so busy being better than me, you missed… again.
You did not offend me or make me angry and I did not actually use language. I do not and will not speak like that. Again it was an attempt to make a point.
I do find it amusing that you talk about others as if they are trying to say their Christianity is better than everyone else and then you act is if you know it all. Neither of us does.
I also understand the point you’ve been trying to make, as I have repeatedly told you. You, however, fail to even acknowledge the point I have been making. Tell me that’s not one-sided.
Please tell me, if all you were going to do was preach and not listen, why did you continue commenting?
The nutshell of my point FOR THE LAST TIME, is without repentance and turning from sin, in no way, shape, or form are you a Christian. That doesn’t mean if you sin after you are a Christian that you’re not a Christian. What that means is, change your lifestyle. Obama has not done that.
Cindy, I was not going to bring up the Liberation Theology thing because that one can lead down a road that ends in a race discussion, but since you bring it up I’ll touch on it.
Do you remember how aggravated Jeremiah Wright (Obama’s pastor) got when he was being interviewed and Sean Hannity asked him about his ministry being a seperatist movement? He wouldn’t answer Hannity’s question and tried to make him look like he didn’t really care about black liberation theology. He started talking about the “white church” and “white america”. This is the theology Obama knows.
This is not white america, black america, pink, blue, purple, orange, or green america! The fact that the theology Obama knows even recognizes a black church/white church line and a black america/white america says something of their beliefs don’t you think?
Now, whether or not Obama says that (in fact he claims there should be no racial seperation) all one has to do is look at his past actions and where he stands now to know that his line about racial equality is hogwash. He and his wife are in fact racist and want to seperate the races and only want to cater to the black community. His wife even said that her life’s goal is to gain a position of power so that she can elevate the black community over the white community. Don’t believe me? Look for her thesis paper from college and check it against http://www.snopes.com.
Just another one of God’s commands they refuse to follow… loving your neighbor. But, of course Obama loves God, just not the God of the Holy Bible.
Of course Carla Marie, I’m sure you’ll find some reason that I’m being self-righteous, judgemental and not very Christian for pointing out truth and that’s ok as long as you feel like you are the better person. You talk about me not being able to examine myself. I do it all the time and come up lacking. If you haven’t noticed (of course you haven’t) when I am wrong and when I make mistakes or say things that I probably shouldn’t have said… I own up to it. So does Cindy. I’ve seen her do it time and time again. So do many of the people who comment on my posts.
In fact, most of the people here have been very gracious and acknowledged everyone else’s points whether or not they agree, everyone but you. I think it’s time you examine yourself as you call us to do.
Lastly, obviously you do not read through people’s comments and posts, you must just skim because I have said repeatedly I do not care who the political candidate is. I don’t care if they are republican, democrat or your favorite disney character, a political statement has no business in a magazine geared towards Christian leaders. You also missed where Cindy said she preferred other versions of the bible, not the king james.
Carla, I told my wife this last night and she laughed about it, but here is the deal. I think the reason I’m driven so crazy by this exchange is that you remind me so much of her. She gleens what she wants from what people say and not what they are actually saying. I have said things as simple as “this food is pretty good” and somehow she hears “you’re an idiot” and the next thing you know, I’m locked out of the bedroom and have no idea how I got there. Of course, it’s usually followed by that so informative line ladies like to use “if you don’t know then I’m certainly not going to tell you.” It’s very akin to your computer saying “error: vxd 10000. 45.dll file not found”. Nobody really knows what it means except expert programmers. All I know is that my computer isn’t working (and I was a computer information systems major with a concentration in programming).
I don’t want to attack you and I never did. You just seem to keep harping on the same thing without even attempting to see my point or even acknowledge what I’m trying to say.
I cannot do this with you any longer. I am not angry or offended and I never was. Like I said, you took what I was saying the complete opposite direction so that you could make yourself look like a more gracious, loving Christian and make you feel better about yourself.
So let me be “poignantly clear”. I love you and Cindy and Obama and everyone else. I don’t want to see anyone go to hell. I don’t condemn anyone (it’s not my job). I feel that we should pray together for Obama, our nation, and each other. Thank God for your husband. I have the utmost respect for him as a military man.
Please take my points into consideration instead of discounting them as coming from a self-righteous, judgemental Christian, because I assure you I am far from those things and am not arrogant about my beliefs. To the contrary, I don’t feel I am anywhere near where I need to be. The moment you think you have arrived, you might as well be dead and gone from this world. I don’t claim to know it all, because I don’t. What I do know I have learned through hard lessons that God has brought me through. If I speak authoritatively on a subject, you can bet it’s probably from experience. I am not old in years, but in action and experience, I far exceed my age.
Thank you for your contributions, but as you essentially said, it may be better to part friends.
Be blessed
J2nice78, I love you! And the truth is, I didn’t miss your point, I get what you were trying to say. I just disagree with it, and as such thought I should offer a differing view. Whatever your opinion of the Obamas is, is of small consequence really, because as the both of us have stated, (repeatedly now) they could be anybody, joe-blow, joe-joe,…JOE THE PLUMBER, any number of Joe combinations!
My point was simply this, we have a mandate from God to be like Christ, in other words, what would Jesus do? …and then follow His lead, simple as that. All of that other cling and clamour, is just that! And let me just say, I like you, am in no position to throw stones. I certainly know what it is to fail the God that I profess to love. I whole heartedly agree, that I am no better than anybody that elected to leave a comment on this blog site nor have I said or implied that…so, I am sorry that is what you gleaned from any statement/comment that I made.
I will say though, that I don’t have a Christianity to claim as it were when it comes to mine being “better” than anyone else’s, I (and so have you and the others represented in this forum, for that matter) have been saved by GRACE, not because I, you or they earned God’s salvation, it is and forever will be His gift to us…so
As for Cindy’s mention of what her favorite version of the bible is, again, I didn’t miss her point. I answered her over arching point (assumption/certainty), which was that I was “young”, and was then followed up by a suggestion of the versions of the bible a “young” person might enjoy most. I didn’t miss her point, I was slightly annoyed by it and choose to ignore it based on its presumptive nature. But, rather than come all unraveled about it, I choose to comment on what my favorite version was. So maybe YOU missed the point.
Anyway, enough of this banter… this back and forth! One thing is true, j2nice78, hate me or love me, befriend me or not, YOU are my brother (SMILE) and that makes me happy! Although, I have to say…I can’t believe you mentioned Sean Hannity of all people. He’s one of the biggest racist out there, but that’s a whole other conversation.
One thing is true, you are quite spirited, and I like that about you. Thank you so much for letting me chime in on this wonderful exchange! It’s been real.
Carla Marie, even if that exchange did drive me crazy, you are always welcome here. I think you know that. Disagreements happen in every family… even the family of God.
And I have seen NO evidence to suggest Sean Hannity is racist. But please, let’s not start a conversation about Hannity, I may pull my hair out before it’s over
.
Anyhow, thank you for your comments and please come back and feel free to offer up your input on other posts as well.
In Christ,
J2
Greetings everyone.
j2nice78 – My heart and prayers go out to you, brother. You are taking undue heat. May our Father in Heaven bless you abundantly with the strength and perserverance of the Holy Spirit. You are doing a fine job. You are not self-righteous. You are simply speaking the truth in love (albeit direct). But that is what I so love about you, brother, your directness in delivering the truth.
CarlaMarie – My heart and prayers go out to you as well. It is easy to quote scripture, read it and throw it back in someone’s face. Please be reminded that even the devil knows scripture. My dear sister, it truly is my prayer that, instead of using scripture as a weapon, you would use it to enlighten. Thank you for pointing out in a round about way that only God knows our hearts. The rest is just human chatter – like that coming from Job’s friends at the gate while God watched, listened and then repremanded and finally blessed His servant. My dear sister in Christ, please take a deep breath and try to see us through that perverbial lense that Christ sees us through. We are broken – sinners all of us. We are simple like sheep.
To bring this discussion once again back full circle, I reiterate that Julie Reid needs to stand for what she believes rather than hide behind some weak excuse such as, “the photo got by me.”
However, since we just can’t get away from the topic of our president-elect. Again, you may be right, CarlaMarie. I personally don’t know the man. I’m simply going off of what I’ve witnessed in his speeches, the “town hall forums”, his policies on abortion and same-sex marriage, to name a few. If our president-elect doesn’t value innocent life, why would he value yours or mine? If that same man claims to be a Christ follower, yet would allow same-sex marriage, what does that say about his overall belief structure regarding scripture? The word of God is just that – it was all God-breathed. It came from Him; therefore it is truth. Truth is truth. It is not subjective. We live in a world that believes in “isms” – humanism, pragmatism, hedonism, relativeism…all void of God the Father. My endeavor, however flawed I am, is to sin less everyday than the day before. I fail everyday. I truly thank my Father in Heaven that he loves me through my faults and delivers me from my sin – everyday.
God bless you, CarlaMarie.
J2Nice78 – I am encouraged by you. I thank God that he blessed you with such strength of character and forged your heart so strongly bound to him.
Thunderstorm blessings, all!
gpark1963
gpark1963, thank you so much for the encouragement. I’ve been needing that lately.
Thank you for your insight and I hope you’ll continue to contribute.
I think it’s very interesting that you bring up truth. You are correct in saying truth is truth. You sometimes hear people say things like “Truth is relative.” I would immediately ask “Is that a relative truth?” Or you hear “There is no absolute truth.” to which I would say “Is that an absolute truth?”
There are a lot of self-defeating statements that pertain to truth, but the fact of the matter is, a truth is true before we even discover it. Before we realized gravity was in effect, didn’t it still exist? Before we knew 2+2=4 did it equal something else?
Whether someone is willing to accept truth or not doesn’t make a truth less valid.
That’s why it’s so dangerous to trust someone who chooses not accept truth where our lives are concerned.
That’s what I was trying to explain to Carla Marie. Just because she disagreed with what I was saying didn’t make it less true. You see, the bible tells us how to recognize a believer and how to recognize someone who thinks they have Christ but really don’t. There are some very specific guidelines.
Again to Julie, you are correct in saying that it didn’t say much of her integrity to play that off instead of owning up to her mistake. She even tried to pin it on someone else. Oh well.
That kind of mistake won’t soon be repeated as she is no longer employed by WLM.
Again, thank you for your input and your kind words. I look forward to hearing from you again soon!